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General >> Questions and Chat >> A Joint Mission or Not?
(Message started by: Ing The Puny on Feb 24th, 2005, 4:36pm) |
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Title: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Ing The Puny on Feb 24th, 2005, 4:36pm I'd like to start a discussion on how the betleH competition differs from a standard Joint Mission where a group of ships (SIMMs) go on a mission together with the same objective. Here are the key differences as I see them and some consequences thereof: I. Volition, How You Join The Action On a JM, the decision to go on the JM is up to the CO of the SIMM. Which means that the players in the SIMM may or may not want to go on the JM, but that the choice to participate is made by the CO, rather than by the individual players. For the betleH tourney on the other hand, not only does each individual player have to decide to attend for themselves, but the player actually has to do a considerable bit of work to attend as well - filling out the join forms, and taking an LOA from their usual SIMM. This difference brings up several consequences: 1) By choosing to attend the Tourney, players implicitly agree to participate in the Tournament and follow its rules. By joining the Tournament, you are agreeing to abide by its rules, just like you would if joining a new SIMM. On the other hand, there is no such contract on a JM. Players merely agree to continue to abide by the rules of their own ship, which is participating in the JM. As a result of this, expectations for people to follow the specific rules are naturally much higher here at the Tournament than on a JM, because everyone involved has made the choice to attend. 2) Because of the additional work involved in attending the Tournament, players who do attend are far more invested in the Tourney than they are in a JM. This is a very special event, one which causes a lot of inconvenience just to attend (since you have to LOA from your own ship) and, as such people have invested a lot of time and emotional energy to be here. As a result, any inappropriate actions which occur here have a much greater negative impact on the participants than similar actions would on a JM. 3) Because a player can simply vanish back to their own SIMM at any time, the Tournament will frequently encounter players who simply leave. The lack of long-term consequences for quitting on the Tournament makes it simply a fact of life that people will be dropping out all the time, for a much broader variety of reasons than people would leave a JM - which would mean leaving their own SIMM. So there needs to be an expectation that, because of this, people will be dropping out all the time. The flip side of this is that if someone doesn't post for even a single day, the presumption can be made that they have dropped out, since people are expected to drop out without telling anyone. This is equally a problem, and will raise perhaps more difficulties than the people who drop out cause directly. II. Compartmentalization, Where You Play On a JM, players are still part of their own ships, with their own COs. Here, everyone is getting together with a completely new group of players under unfamiliar COs, outside the authority of their normal chain of command. This also has several consequences: 1) Inappropriate actions that take place on another ship in a JM can be easily ignored. After all, it happened on another ship, so you can just not recognize that action within your own SIMM. Such things can easily be dismissed as not 'really happening' for the purposes of your own SIMM. At the Tournament, on the other hand, there are no such natural dividers. Everything that gets posted at the Tourney 'really happens' here. Which greatly compounds the effects of any inappropriate actions, since they directly affect everybody at the tournament. 2) Players on a JM are still part of their existing SIMM. Their primary interactions are with the people they are used to interacting with, and the authority over them is their own CO. A CO will be familiar with his own players, and the players familiar with the CO, which helps things run smoothly within each compartment of the game. Here at the Tourney, however, the Judges are complete strangers to most of the participants, and there are dozens of participants to only 3 Judges. This means a lot more conflicts as players interact with people that they are not familiar with, under constraints of a set of COs they are unfamiliar with, in an environment where the player-to-CO ration is far higher than usual. 3) If there are problems in a JM, each player recognizes the authority of their own CO, who is right there to ride herd on them. Given the fact that most players do not know the judges, the same recognition of authority is not present. Additionally, the vast number of players here makes the Judges very distant and impersonal figures, which makes it harder for them to make their presence felt to the individual players. III. Disciplinary Action Taking disciplinary action in a JM setting is completely different - and the consequences are completely different - from here at the Tournament. 1) Each CO in a JM has the right and responsibility to discipline their own players. So if something goes wrong, you talk to that player's CO, and they take care of it. However, CO's can't discipline players on other ships, which isn't much of a problem because of the compartmental separation of the different SIMMs as mentioned above. Here, everything falls on the Judges, who have to take disciplinary action for anything that happens among the very large group of players here. The chain of command structure is vastly different. With no individual COs to manage their players, the Judges are responsible for the management of everybody at the tournament, and it is their responsibility to deal directly with any inappropriate actions. Which is made much more difficult by the lack of compartmentalization, as I mentioned above. 2) If a player is kicked out of a JM, they are getting kicked out of their own SIMM, which is a part of the JM. That is an exceptionally severe consequence. However, if a player gets kicked out of the Tournament, they just head back to their existing SIMM, which really isn't a huge deal. So all disciplinary actions ranging up to being kicked out, have very different consequences at the tournament from the same actions, were they to be taken in a JM setting. 3) Players in either setting need to have confidence that inappropriate actions will be dealt with, and that they are being protected against inappropriate actions that directly affect them. In a SIMM, there is much more direct contact between a player and their CO, enabling such communication to flow easily, and that CO has a lot of say on things that directly affect the CO's ship. Here at the Tournament, however, this is much more difficult. Again, the ratio of players to judges is far higher than on a JM, and the players have no experience upon which to base their confidence in the Judges' authority. So extra effort should be made to make it clear that the Judges are taking and will take appropriate action to protect the players from the negative actions of others. Those are my general thoughts. Please restrict your comments to a general discussion of how this is different from a JM, and what things should consequentially be different in this setting. This is not an appropriate place to discuss individual incidents or specific posts at this tournament. |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 24th, 2005, 5:16pm Well while that is partially thrue - so far i have seen all the klingon players having a CO above them and with that there is a regulation to it. Once way would be to have something lover then the judges be displinary guardings for those who are outside the of those CO headed groups. A TFCO or TGCO can be those who will met out judgement. Ulitmatly the judges are the ones responsible for developing this. it seems to me that a great body is needed when it comes to handing out judgments on particular issues. As Ing already stated there are a lot of players and a lot of conflict. On the last tourney there werent as many players and each time it will be worse - i think it would good if more supervising personell was created. |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 24th, 2005, 5:34pm Ing The Puny wrote:
What he said. I will have more thoughts later but I do have a few initial ones. These might be a tad nit picky. Some JMs involve the crew of one ship moving to the site of another simm. For instance, a JM with the Saturn and KDB might involve most of the crew of KDB transferring to the Saturn for the mission (and their mailing list, etc) or it might mean Saturn crew go onto KDB the station, then transport down to KDB the planet with some KDB crew and have a mission there. So some JMs do have some similarities to this one. Durkis is the senior CO of this JM. He invented it. That is what we mean when we say he is the Chair. That said, this year, Valren is the CO of the setting so many decisions fall to him. So, when I wanted to have Q'olavraH beam through the shields onto the base I cleared it with him. This is his base and the events become canon for his simm. As Ing said, I can back to KDB and ignore that XXX happened on this JM, he can't. So he rules about reactions of the NPCs. Many people think I am in charge. I might be the most vocal, but it is a team effort and as I said already, Durkis is actually the senior CO for the tourney. I was the owner of the setting last year and for the last two years I was the person who reviewed all the apps so I think I have had the most direct interaction with players, in general. That is just a side effect of my big mouth and my duties here. Yes, there are characters at the tourney I would never allow in my simm. There are probably characters that Durkis, Valren, and I would not allow in our simm. But that is a part of a JM. You have to allow for some characters you'd never allow otherwise and players of the more radical characters need to remember that your weirdest stuff should be toned down because of this. But this is true of any JM. For example, I would probably never allow a changeling or a ex-borg drone in my simm. I might, depending on the player, but as a general rule, no. Either is too easy to abuse. But, I can't ignore that they are valid, canon, character concepts. When ships visit KDB, I might get one showing up. This is just a style difference that is part of the compromise of doing a JM. Ing also says that most of the characters are unknown to the judges. That was very true in year one and somewhat true last year, but each year, we meet more of you. I think that I have previously simmed with more than half of the tourney participants, if only at previous tourneys. Vanishing: I assume that everyone who shows up is there until the last day unless they specifically leave. This means posting that someone is gone and then seeing them later means you thought they were gone and were wrong. It is easy enough for a character to over indulge and spend too much time in their rooms at a conference, or maybe find other, more interesting distractions. Role playing around someone going inactive is easy enough unless they are a fighter. So next year, expect to see additional rules on those who sign up to fight. Sometimes RL gets in the way but Ing is right, you have a responsibility to keep up if you’re a fighter. To do otherwise, is to lessen the fun for the others who are here. Discipline is an issue. In some cases we can ban a player if they are disrupting the tourney. When I dropped my big bombshell (the rommie one I mean) I was prepared to spend the tourney, in character, in the brig. I would have still done all my admin stuff of course. Your IC actions will be responded to in character. Also, if a character does something particularly bad, the proper response in character might be to inform their in character CO and put a mark on their permanent in character record. What hasn't happened yet is some character insulting a Klingon PC or NPC in a way that would force a fight to the death. Imagine if the conflict between ta'pez and K'Hare went there? How would two COs decide who wins? If two players do that, then you'd better have decided the resolution. On a single simm, the CO could work this out. Here, it would be harder. But we are all role players. We'd have to find a solution. Finally, the judges have to power to ban a player from future participation. We'd hate to go there but just like a simm, the CO's judgment rules. Since we all know that mere attendance at this event is the biggest prize and honor in bravofleet, I know this is an effective deterrent to the worst of actions. (:} |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 24th, 2005, 5:36pm We are still relying on the participants to point out bad behavior to us. As the event grows, I would expect it to get large enough that we have to appoint security players. Are we there yet? Maybe. We will consider that next year. |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by K`rahl on Feb 25th, 2005, 5:04am In general I find Ing's thoughts very accurate. K'Hare is right though, many players on this list were at the first or second Tournament. It is good chance to really explore things. I concur that here we must accept some characters would not even be permitted on SIMMs we are used to. Also those characters should bear that in mind. It is also important that those not used to dealing with the Klingon culture within BF, and here I mean the IC culture built up over mant years by long standing Klingon players, need to be sure of how to behave. At the same time the Klingon players need to be aware that not all players understand the intricacies of our politics. I do not like, for example, an experienced Klingon picking fault with a Klingon from a Federation SIMM who has not before had the chance to mix with us. My points do apply to JMs too but even more to this. If I were to attend a competition hosted by BF Marines I would be like an orQan in the air. For the comments of K'Hare regarding a JM involving players swapping lists... When this happens one would trust the two COs have discussed the matter with their crews. Each crewmember moving to another SIMM's list should agree to such, or the player's rights may be breached. Each player is then duty bound to abide by the SIMM rules where the character ends up as well as any JM rules and possibly still those expected by the CO of the root SIMM. I've done this with selected players in the past with mixed results. I for one see this as more than a JM. Here the different worlds of the different SIMMs need to mesh more than in even the most important JM. I think this post is poorly put forward. If I've veered a little off subject I'm sure Ing or K'Hare will let me know. |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Q`olavraH on Feb 25th, 2005, 11:55am Everyone has made very good points here. The two things that I have seen that I will comment on are things I've said to those that I speak to regularly. Different SIMMs have different rules and styles. On some ships there is much leeway in how much you are allowed to write other characters. When I was in BF the first time I was on a SIMM where you were allowed to write extensively for others as long as you portrayed the character correctly, then if that player had a problem they would correct it in an OOC post and we would all go on. The problem I had with this was I was going on vacation for 2 weeks and I had worked out, in advance, a storyline with 2 other players whom I trusted implicity to write my character. They veered from the storyline we had spoken about and severely mistreated my character. When I came back at the end of my vacation I had to 'kill' my character because of what they had done to and with her, and the CO said that because it had not been corrected at the time of the writing I couldn't undo it. This is why I only play on SIMMs where you write for yourself and if you write for someone else you email them the post first and they have edit rights. I dislike intensely this practice: Q'olavraH: *laughed at him* You are a fool! Dinglewhop: <tag> ? Q'olavraH: Oh really? Then perhaps I should kill you! Dinglewhop: <tag> ? Q'olavraH: It is a good thing you appologised or I would have cut your arms off! Dinglewhop: <tag> ? Q'olavraH: Since you have shown proper respect for my greatness, I will allow you share my barrel of bloodwine. Very annoying. When people do this to me, I never respond how it is obvious they want me to respond just for sheer contankerousness. :) My second point is those who disappear after they lose, or those who know they will not have computer access for the entire tourney but they join to fight anyway. I understand real life and how it throws us curves, I've been there, done that before. I am there now with certain real life issues that are very upsetting and sucking my time, but we all know real life comes first so that is most important. If real life has thrown you a curve during the tourney then unless you are in traction in a hospital bed or something you need to do an OOC post to the forum (I love the forum for the tourney by the way, much easier to keep track of where we are) letting everyone know that you are out of comission for a while or for the rest of the tourney. Once your character loses you have MORE time to write about your character. You come to fight, but you should stay to play. I can not stress this enough. The best friend I've ever had, I met the first year at the tourney, I never would have developed this friendship if I'd left after I lost my first PC battle. This year there have been upsets, which I'm glad of. I rejoiced when I was beaten in the round of 8. I was HAPPY! I get to concentrate on RP now and not on writing fight scenes. If you play, then stay!! Okay, I'm done now. :) To summarize (since I ramble): We need a pat set of easy to follow posting instructions. It being a forum, you can post one line, one word even and let the other person reply. If you come to play, then plan to stay. |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Dan on Mar 1st, 2005, 4:45pm Q`olavraH wrote:
Yay we have something in common, that really irks me too and I reply the same way =) ~Dan |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Q`olavraH on Mar 1st, 2005, 11:28pm Dan wrote:
Well.. I was telling K'Hare one day about this unbearably long post where someone did it to me in excess of 10 times and it was so obvious that I was supposed to make my character look stupid for their gratification.. He is the one that told me to respond totally wrong. In fact, I think he pointed me to a post where it had been him in that situation and how he handled it was so funny, I've never looked back. Joint Posts people.. we have email and PM and IM.. JOINT POSTS!! *takes a breath* |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Ta`pez HoD on Mar 1st, 2005, 11:31pm joint posts are fun - all the reallly fun interesting things that we did here on the tourney were done in joint post setting. i am shoving trillian and gaim on my crew inorder to make sure they are always accessible for joint posting. in fact a long standing crew member of mine because inactive because of his inability to joint post. i am still looking at how to adress that particular issues but man - i am telling - joint posting is VERY important. |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by K`Hare totlh on Mar 2nd, 2005, 5:11am Chief Engineer Dufus walks up to K'Hare on the bridge. Dufus: Hey dude, how's it going? K'Hare: <tag> Dufus: That's great man, things are good with me too. K'Hare: <tag> Dufus: Yeah. So about that replicator problem, I think I can fix it if I insert some technobabble here. K'Hare: <tag> Dufus: OK, I will get on that right away. It will be all set in less than an hour. Anything else? K'Hare: <tag> Dufus nods, turns, and goes to the turbo lift. REPLY Chief Engineer Dufus walks up to K'Hare on the bridge. Dufus: Hey dude, how's it going? K'Hare: My favorite targh died. I am in a mood to kill anyone who annoys me. *looks at CEO with the hint to leave now* Dufus: That's great man, things are good with me too. K'Hare: I just told you my favorite targh died. I cared more about it than I do about you. Are you sure you want to be smiling and laughing at me human? Dufus: Yeah. So about that replicator problem, I think I can fix it if I insert some technobabble here. K'Hare: *getting angrier* I am giving you a short time to make your peace, to say good buy. You have little time left flathead. Make your last few minutes count! Dufus: OK, I will get on that right away. It will be all set in less than an hour. Anything else? K'Hare: *ready to explode in fury* Don't turn your back on me! Dufus nods, turns, and goes to the turbo lift. With his Daqtagh drawn, K'Hare charges with the intent to explain the finer points of honor and showing your back to someone you just insulted. <tag CEO> |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Ta`pez HoD on Mar 2nd, 2005, 7:01am that was definintly one of the funnier posts |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Q`olavraH on Mar 2nd, 2005, 7:10pm Ahhhhh to observe the master at work.. could life get better? ;) |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by Ta`pez HoD on Mar 2nd, 2005, 8:28pm sending him to the Romulan Earlobe Competion ! |
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Title: Re: A Joint Mission or Not? Post by K`rahl on Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:35pm Not bad |
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