Third Annual BF betleH Tournament

Third Annual BF betleH Tournament (http://www.betleh.com/cgi-bin/b3/YaBB.pl)

General >> Questions and Chat >> ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
(Message started by: K`Hare totlh on Feb 24^th, 2005, 2:33am)

Title: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 24^th, 2005, 2:33am

OFF:

tal'vur vs. ta'pez - the scanning

I was asked my opinion on this.

First, in the end, the actions of security are valren's decision... it is his base. So if they get involved, he will have to decide what is done.

Second: this is an interesting way for tal'vur to show he is fighting dirty... I would not have expected it. One has to assume he is doing this covertly. But also, as the post noted, his hardware beeped. That could draw attention. If that's the only advantage it gave, that was clever. Of course, this could be used for role playing later... and without ta'pez's permission, it is questionable.

Third: Getting emotional around a half betazed is not the wisest course of action. This in itself could very well alert him. Tal'vur's emotions could be blocked by the crowds or they could be odd enough, and close enough since he is right behind ta'pez, to give him away.

Fourth: With the death of the first lord of Chang ta'pez is the House's de facto first lord. He would have guards watching him and those around him. Not to prevent someone from attacking him, but to prevent someone from attacking dishonorably. Waving any small humming device would get their attention. From their point of view, ta'pez is the POTUS and you just did something hinky by him. I don't see them waiting to react.

So I think I'd have to side with PEZhead here. His security would notice and react. valren can comment on the station security. Maybe they wouldn't notice this because its not affecting the ring, maybe they would. I will wait for him to comment on that.

K'rahl, if someone covertly waved a blinking device at you, how would the maidens (which you had to leave behind) react, even in a crowd?

Again, in the end it is valrenÂ’s base so his final call but at the very least, my opinion as a player is taÂ’pezÂ’s security would notice.

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by Valren Arelwynn, XFY CO on Feb 24^th, 2005, 8:59am

OFF:

I agree, there seems to be no reason why Ta'pez's folks would not notice this as they would be watching him like a hawk. However, if these folks are armed, then security will be in turn trailiing them.

So, I would say the following:
a) Ta'pez guards will now be trailing Tal'Vur
b) if the guards attack/assault/interfere with Tal'Vur, the guards will be stunned by security and locked in the brig

Now, if 'b' comes to pass, we have a very interesting situation. If the Chang guards were to tell security that Tal'Vur was doing something fishy, he would also be locked up pending an investigation and would thus forfeit his next match. But would the Chang guards want to involve the Federation in this? Probably not, that would be up to Ta'pez I suppose.

So, as it stands right now, Tal'Vur is being trailed by Chang agents who are in turn being trailed by XFY agents.

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by K`rahl on Feb 24^th, 2005, 12:27pm

Off

K`Hare totlh wrote:

K'rahl, if someone covertly waved a blinking device at you, how would the maidens (which you had to leave behind) react, even in a crowd?

Chances are, giving that I had 4 with me, two would place themselves between us and the other two would subdue him. Even in this crowd and without K'rahl having any form of jurisdiction.

You can of course assume that all three of my cousins that are here are watching me closely. No security was mentioned for Kur'rk, who is senior to me, but you can bet he has two or three warriors watching him too. Of course Kur'rk has no Shieldmaidens.

I agree Pez was right to post some of his boys seeing this. Still... I like the post, even if it means I'd not like the character if I knew his practices.

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 24^th, 2005, 12:36pm

these ooc replies should be spliced with a link to here into a new thread.

i will send Talvur a JP outline and we ll take it from there

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 24^th, 2005, 12:53pm

Valren Arelwynn, XFY CO wrote:

i seek clarification on this - the security wouldnt know of this until the klingons were to move - unless the XFY CO is admiting that he is shadowing all the klingons with heavy security teams.

i am protesting that any character be given access to this data.

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by K`rahl on Feb 24^th, 2005, 1:05pm

Ta`pez HoD wrote:

All armed Klingons are being followed, its clearly stated elsewhere on the Forum.

I agree though, the OOCs need splitting from this thread in respect to the combatants.

Oh wait... all armed Klingons... maybe Ta'pez himself is not being followed then...

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 24^th, 2005, 1:26pm

the klingons would not be armed safe for the their dagger which is part of uniform

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by Valren Arelwynn, XFY CO on Feb 24^th, 2005, 1:28pm

OFF:

Ta`pez HoD wrote:

All Klingons with weapons yes. Please read the weapons law thread in the rules section: http://www.batlh.com/cgi-bin/betleHIII/YaBB.pl?board=genRules;action=display;num=1107854901

To which data do you refer? Standard information that could be found by any tricorder? People already have access to this data as Ta'pez would have been scanned when we was cleared through "customs" to get on the base for the tournament.

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 24^th, 2005, 1:30pm

"people" - is this information readily available?

and further more who has access to it - i believe this would be on a need to know basis and the need to know here is not present.

edit: this is getting very complicated - if they were scanned how was K'Hares romulan ancestory not detected...i just think we are opening a can of worms here

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by TalVur on Feb 24^th, 2005, 3:22pm

OOC: I'm picking us up and moving all this nonsense to Questions and Chat. http://www.batlh.com/cgi-bin/betleHIII/YaBB.pl?board=genChat;action=display;num=1109276383;start=0#0

I'm assuming that K'hare will eventually move all of the OOC stuff there.

To Q'olavraH and O'Donnell, sorry to hijack your match with all of this.

Title: A place for the big OOC discussion
Post by TalVur on Feb 24^th, 2005, 3:19pm

Figured I'd move the conversation over to here, that way we aren't just adding more and more posts that K'Hare needs to move later.

http://www.batlh.com/cgi-bin/betleHIII/YaBB.pl?board=Day2fc;action=display;num=1109128663;start=15

Anyways, I think that those scans, while thorough, were really only mean to verify the identity of the competitor and make sure they weren't stuffed with some sort of explosive or contraband. I think that is all that security would be looking at, though all the data would have been there.

On top of that, K'Hare is a judge and therefore a VIP. I would also like to think that he would be afforded some sort of leeway in the fact that the scan with him is really only a formality.

Title: Re: A place for the big OOC discussion
Post by Valren Arelwynn, XFY CO on Feb 24^th, 2005, 4:08pm

Tal'Vur makes a good point that K'Hare likely would not have had to go through security because he is a judge, but even if he had, there would be no more reason to stop him for it than there would have been for Ta'pez to be stopped because he is half betazoid or anyone else with a mixed heritage.

Ta'pez is right that the information is on a need to know basis - high up security, intel and command department people could access it - but my point was that unless we are talking about something that couldn't be detected by scanners then there is no reason why Tal'Vur couldn't have discovered it with his tricorder.

Title: Re: A place for the big OOC discussion
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 24^th, 2005, 5:01pm

Exactly what is it?

Everyone knows about ta'pez and K'Hare now, that is everyone knows their approximate heritage.

If either has a weird disease, is an augment, is a changeling... that isn't known unless tal'vur just discovered it with this scanning action.

I assume base security simply scanned for metals/energy (weapons), explosives, or bio hazards. If one had paid attention perhaps they would have noticed a variance in K'Hare's anatomy but there was no reason to look and no reason to take notice of it and certainly no reason to report it.

Title: Re: A place for the big OOC discussion
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 24^th, 2005, 5:10pm

Valren Arelwynn, XFY CO wrote:

tahts why I would like to deny him that knowledge IC - or least make him work for it very hard

Title: Re: A place for the big OOC discussion
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 24^th, 2005, 5:38pm

Note that last year at least one character was stopped apparently randomly as he entered KDB. After he was checked out, he was allowed entrance.

Tank, care to comment?

Title: Re: A place for the big OOC discussion
Post by Ing The Puny on Feb 24^th, 2005, 6:08pm

One other thing to remember is the massive amount of rumors going around IC regarding the genetics of K'Hare and Ta'pez. While we all know OOC what happened at the meH'Haj dinner, most people on the base only have heard rumore IC.

So I wouldn't be surprised if numerous people were trying to surreptitiously scan the two of them to try to confirm the rumors.

Title: Re: Kieran VS Q'olavraH
Post by Valren Arelwynn, XFY CO on Feb 25^th, 2005, 10:13am

To answer K'Hare's question:

People would have gone through a scan when they came on board to ensure they weren't carrying a disease, concealing weapons or explosives, etc... while conducting that scan, the computer would have detected and recorded the species of the person in question. The officer operating the scan would likely not even look at that result and certainly would not care -- mixed heritage is not as big of a deal in the Federation as it is in the Empire. The only point I was making here was that, if Ta'pez objected to his character being scanned, then it was too late because it already happened IC.

I'm sorry but I think I've lost sight of the problem here and this is dragging on forever. Could each Ta'pez and Tal'Vur state their greivence concisely and I'll make a call.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 25^th, 2005, 11:44am

The basic argument here was the following.

Talvur decided to scan me and K'Tar. That this is something that klingons would object to is a certainty. For one we are big on privacy and as you noted during the meH'Haj dinner, some didnt even have a medical record available.

Now since the event had happened and Talvur had decided to go about this I decided to make his achievement not so sure.

I wrote in that my security people ae watching him. Valren in turn wrote that his his security people are watching.

From here I see it as a matter of XFY security stepping in as the klingons raise a stink (i already posted to that regard and then an investigation follows).

In my opinion the tricorder woud be confiscated and and investigation would follow. The klingons would object to this illigal behavior the judges would be notified and could be a scene about this. The tricorder would be returned after the end of the matches preferably without the data.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by TalVur on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:01pm

My view is thus:

I'm a Federation doctor and I don't recall there being anything against a doctor making a few scans, pretty much anywhere (other than for classified reasons) and I don't sewe why this shouldn't apply here.

Ta'pez notes that he said his security people are watching, but he also called it as an assination plot after it was ruled that if the klingons were to attack/accost/whatever me they would be stunned and put in the brig and I saw this as lashing out because he really didn't want me to have those scans after the judges ruled.

I don't have a problem with he fact that I was 'caught' in the act and I don't have a problem with this debate (debate is healthy most of the time) I just disagree with the fact that the data would be confiscated or the doc arrested unless there was some proof that he was doing something blatantly illegal (which I don't see), at most I see a bunch of security people being followed by a bunch of security people being followed by....but you get the idea. I just don't understand why data would be confiscated in the first place.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:06pm

because the people who are protesting are of considerable political influence. Sorta like Tony Blair coming to Bush and saying - hey i reaaally have an issue with it.

i can live with their way of the argument - once the decision has been made.

mainly its a culture clash and i would like to display it as such.

on a side note - debate is healthy, although TalVur and I have have a difference of opinion we are not letting our working relationship be impacted.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by TalVur on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:11pm

Exactly, and as soon as the tournament is over, Ta'pez and Tal'Vur are engaged to be engaged! That's how much we like each other!

Just kidding, but I've actually been working with him to make graphics for the dagger of shame.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:15pm

TalVur wrote:

Exactly, and as soon as the tournament is over, Ta'pez and Tal'Vur are engaged to be engaged! That's how much we like each other!

thats a scary line

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Q`olavraH on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:15pm

That is the thing. If you are Klingon.. this is considered to be a big no, no.

Klingons do not go to the doctor. It is established fact that there are no medical scans on file for most Klingons because we do not seek medical treatment.

There are exceptions of course, but if you review most of the medical knowledge for BFs Klingons you will see that any medical stuff done to them was done a.) By some Federation person who was breaking the rules of Klingon medical ettiquette, and b.) when the Klingon who was having done to them was unconscious and couldn't make them stop what they were doing to them. If other Klingons are around when this happens they will forcibly stop the medical person from doing whatever it is that breaks this unwritten code.

Do not scan a Klingon unless you want your tricorder smashed.

If we agree to treatment at all it is by folk healing and herbal remedy.

We have several maxims on this subject:

ropehoHbe' tlhInganpu'
Klingons do not get sick.

QongDaqDaq Qotbe' tlhInganpu'
Klingons do not lie in bed.

Notes on these two sayings say specifically:

There is a general distrust of medicine. Klingons value being in control, so having the need for medical interventioon is a sign of not only physical weakness but of spiritual weakness. Kras said, "The sick should die. Only the strong should live."

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by TalVur on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:19pm

Ta`pez HoD wrote:

thats a scary line

No, the wedding pictures would be scary. I can't imagine seeing Ta'pez in a white gown...because we're going to be keeping my name.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:26pm

*beheads the good doctor*

problem solved althogether -

-------------------------

on a more serious note - read the last post of QolavraH - she pretty much stated the culture conflict.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by TalVur on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:32pm

http://www.geocities.com/aideonofaesir/tappy.jpg

It would look a lot like this. Sorry to disappoint you guys, but Tappy isn't that good looking in a dress.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Ta`pez HoD on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:35pm

Seems like somebody will be fighting an honor challenge

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Valren Arelwynn, XFY CO on Feb 25^th, 2005, 1:46pm

Having read the above, I assume we should just continue from where we were and see where it ends up, I will have reply to Ta'pez's tag.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 25^th, 2005, 2:14pm

TalVur wrote:

I'm a Klingon warrior and I don't recall there being anything against an insulted HoD making a few stabs with his Daqtagh, pretty much anywhere (other than for a few ceremonial reasons) and I don't see why this shouldn't apply here.

What happened makes perfect sense to me, in character. So we should handle it, all in character. I like how this will show another aspect of Klingon culture in a new way. tal'vur is about to learn in character, that Klingon’s don’t like medicine. Look back at my scene with val’ren and how close his telepathy was to becoming an issue. If anyone mind scans K’Hare and he finds out, he wont react well. How to resolve that is a question the situation would answer.

On XFY, in the end, security or valren will have to decide, in character. I am guessing he would attempt to delete the data in deference to the Empire representative but he needs to figure out what is in character for him and the federation. On KDB, security would form a barrier and expect the two to fight to the death over this. It’s a difference in the federation vs. Empire viewpoint.

It is good drama... let's see what happens.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by TalVur on Feb 25^th, 2005, 3:18pm

Going back off topic:

In the interest of fairness to Ta'pez...

http://www.geocities.com/aideonofaesir/KHare.jpg

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Ing The Puny on Feb 25^th, 2005, 3:22pm

Nice!

It's mIv tuQ K'Hare sans mIv!

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 25^th, 2005, 3:24pm

You need to put that on the BF forum, and sadly, I will have to give a tribble point for it.

Though I'd prefer it to say K'Hears or DonK'Hare unless this represents the fliers that ta'pez was passing out

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by Q`olavraH on Feb 25^th, 2005, 3:28pm

The laughing.. *gasp* the pain.. in the stomach.. *gasp*

If I had been drinking, I'd have spit something everywhere.. so I can't tal'vur to my list... yet.

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by TalVur on Feb 25^th, 2005, 4:05pm

http://forum.bravofleet.com/viewtopic.php?p=202805#202805

There ya go, K'Hare...

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by SajidaKajada on Feb 25^th, 2005, 4:57pm

Heh this is wayyyy too hilarious!!! I never thought Ta'pez would be raiding my closet for my wedding dress anytime soon :P

Title: Re: ta'pez/tal'vur scanning thing
Post by gtrell on Feb 25^th, 2005, 5:01pm

This is why I have not made an effort to get a pic for my bio yet. *Rolls on the floor laughing*